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How critical are borders for 1:24?

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  • How critical are borders for 1:24?

    When I started my layout, it was 1:32 and as things have morphed along I keep entertaining the notion of 1:24. However, I really didn't have that in mind as I expanded my track and as a result I have some turns through tunnels and other types of turns that would be challenging to add borders. I have a lot of areas that I could but... bottom line is if I have to have inside and outside borders on all turns to realistically enjoy 1:24 driving... I might be better served to stick with 1:32.

    Since the straights are the same width for both, the larger cars will obviously fit on the curves but I would imagine the borders are needed for sliding on the outside and trailing rear tires dropping off the inside edge of the track due to the longer wheel base. Is that fair to say or are there other purposes for inside and outside borders with 1:24?

    I spose I could just buy a couple cars and see how it goes but I figured I'd pose a few questions first:

    1. I have a few turns that would be a real challenge to add borders, if I use guardrail on both sides, does 1:24 do ok? I know it's not ideal but the curves in question are either through tunnels that widening would require a lot of modification to my existing landscaping or linked compound curves that I don't slide a lot on and the transitions between outside and inside borders don't match up real well and these are either linked 1/60s or linked 2/30s so there is never more than 60 degrees of curvature before the curve reverses. Would I be wrong to assume that these types of curves would be less likely to need inside borders or outside for that matter, compared to say... 3 1/60 curves that together form a 180 degree curve?

    2. I have made some of my own borders and they work ok. The big challenge is getting them to match up with the track level and then stay that way. The Carrera borders with the clips lock into place really well. What I don't like about the carrera ones is the red/white striping which is easily dealt with but the transitions between curves, compound curves, i.e. anything other than a tangent, and the inability to customize the width where needed.

    The width on the Carrera inside and outside borders are the same I think.... Are the width of the inside borders overkill?

    So the question really is: If I make my own borders, what is the minimum width I could get away with on the inside curves?

    3. would silicones on 1:24 compensate for a lack of borders in certain areas? Logic in my thinking is less sliding... but... ever since Mr. Flippant commented on my track thread about sliding and Dave chimed in... well... lets just say I like sliding.

    I know this is a lot of information to ask and I appreciate any insight.

  • #2
    Putting walls at the edge of the track with no border room just means the car will rub the walls. People often use this an advantage and go full speed when they have a wall to lean on. Depending on the layout, and the number of inside v/ outside turns, you might very well end up with a favored lane because it can be taken at high speed without worrying about deslotting. Here's a video of exactly that on one of DRAWW's old tracks:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fhNcEyzGjY"]Scalextric Digital Crash Resistant GT race heat - DRAWW racing - YouTube[/ame]

    Now, those are magnet cars, but you can see how they can ride the fence. See the marks on the wall in the foreground to the left? Those aren't painted on by a brush. Those are actual marks from the cars riding the wall, leaving their liveries behind. The cars will then change lanes going up the hill and ride the wall up there. Imagine all that, but more rubbing with magless cars because they'll slide enough to rub the wall even at low speed. Magless cars on the inside lane, with no wall to lean on, will be at a BIG disadvantage.

    Silicone won't help. The car will still slide, just not as much... once the track has been 100% cleaned by the tires and the tires are cleaned regularly. More grip on tires doesn't mean no sliding unless you slow down. Even NSR SuperGrip tires allow the car to kick out when you drive it hard.

    Dave doesn't put walls at the edges of his track any more, by the way.

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    • #3
      DON'T BUY ANY 1/24 CARS...you will be sorry...

      1st off inner and outer borders are the same width. They are 1/2 the full track width, 4" I think. Inner borders are not much of an issue unless it's a corner that requires slow speed where the rear tire would drop off the track. I don't have any inners on mine except the esses.

      As far as your tunnels go I would leave them as is unless you want to do major surgery. Just know the cars will be riding the rail and damage could occur. I have guardrails outside of my borders and the cars still hit em sliding..

      I would just put borders where you can for now and try a car or two. Be advised, you will like driving them, you will want them to slide and you will redo your layout to accommodate your new cars. Ask me how I know that.


      Dave

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MrFlippant View Post
        Putting walls at the edge of the track with no border room just means the car will rub the walls. People often use this an advantage and go full speed when they have a wall to lean on. Depending on the layout, and the number of inside v/ outside turns, you might very well end up with a favored lane because it can be taken at high speed without worrying about deslotting.
        Gottcha, I'm already seeing this as I started out ignorant to borders and had guardrail on all turns.

        Originally posted by MrFlippant View Post
        Silicone won't help. The car will still slide, just not as much... once the track has been 100% cleaned by the tires and the tires are cleaned regularly. More grip on tires doesn't mean no sliding unless you slow down. Even NSR SuperGrip tires allow the car to kick out when you drive it hard.
        10-4... this was kind of a loaded question... I want to have as much room to slide as possible but there are areas where I just don't have room and sillis might give enough grip to keep from beating up the body too much...

        Originally posted by dw5555 View Post
        DON'T BUY ANY 1/24 CARS...you will be sorry...
        My wife says I'm not allowed to play with you anymore...

        Originally posted by dw5555 View Post
        1st off inner and outer borders are the same width. They are 1/2 the full track width, 4" I think. Inner borders are not much of an issue unless it's a corner that requires slow speed where the rear tire would drop off the track. I don't have any inners on mine except the esses.
        Good to know that... I was adding up the cost of all these borders and... well... you know.

        Originally posted by dw5555 View Post
        As far as your tunnels go I would leave them as is unless you want to do major surgery. Just know the cars will be riding the rail and damage could occur. I have guardrails outside of my borders and the cars still hit em sliding..
        Yea, I'm going to have too... leave the tunnels as is, that is. hate to damage those pretty cars, that extra detail is my motivating factor at this point. But... what the hell... it's only time and money, right?

        Originally posted by dw5555 View Post
        I would just put borders where you can for now and try a car or two. Be advised, you will like driving them, you will want them to slide and you will redo your layout to accommodate your new cars. Ask me how I know that.


        Dave
        I'm not listening... not listening at all... can't hear you.

        Thanks! here is a little diagram I made to start out with. I have one set of outside 1/60 borders. couple more should do it to start with. BTW, the green borders are my existing DIY ones and the red are per Carrera dimensions.

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        • #5
          I am still new, but run 124 with full interior and exterior borders. I find that on the exit of the corners (2/30 and 3/30 only atm) that I often need a little extra border length even on the straight away to keep the car fully on the track. I still am running a basic figure 8, and I cant tell you the number of times I have run a car halfway up the overpass with an inside rear tire hanging off the track. I will note that I am running default rubber tires, and its a floor track with a cat in the house, so cleanliness of the track and tires is always questionable.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Findywen View Post
            I am still new, but run 124 with full interior and exterior borders. I find that on the exit of the corners (2/30 and 3/30 only atm) that I often need a little extra border length even on the straight away to keep the car fully on the track. I still am running a basic figure 8, and I cant tell you the number of times I have run a car halfway up the overpass with an inside rear tire hanging off the track. I will note that I am running default rubber tires, and its a floor track with a cat in the house, so cleanliness of the track and tires is always questionable.
            Good to know. That's one of the reasons I made my own borders initially. Those little 1/4 circle end pieces they don't look good (IMO) and unless the curve goes into a straight, they don't fit. The ones I made have a nice smooth transition.

            The downside is that I've yet to figure out a way to attach them to the main track that works as well as the red clips. It's also a challenge to get a perfect fit but that's just a matter of patience. And cost. I think I can make mine cheaper. The first one I did, I used scraps I had laying around but when I went to purchase additional material, I became aware of the true cost and was surprised to find I had spent more than it would have cost to buy the Carrera.

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            • #7
              Actually he brought up a valid point as shown in the video. I have a full straight border after the curve and it's still not enough for the faster curves. So you might as well connect all those new curves together with straight borders, especially since they are on an upper level.

              Dave

              [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nio3sNAKR20"]Carrera 1/24 slow motion car slide - YouTube[/ame]

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              • #8
                Even on inside you really should have at least one full straight border after turn. The cars WILL slide back to inside when accelerating out of corner without magnets. We found two were safer.

                Harry

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by dw5555 View Post
                  Actually he brought up a valid point as shown in the video. I have a full straight border after the curve and it's still not enough for the faster curves. So you might as well connect all those new curves together with straight borders, especially since they are on an upper level.

                  Dave
                  I see what you mean. I think I'm gong to need to work on the engineering design side of my DIY borders. I think they would look and work much better through the esse curves as I could customize the transitions and in some of the trailing curve borders, I could go from a full 4" border and taper it down to 1" or so through an entire straight. It would look better, fit better and it doesn't appear that you need that entire 4" for a full straight after the curve.

                  Originally posted by hksk25 View Post
                  Even on inside you really should have at least one full straight border after turn. The cars WILL slide back to inside when accelerating out of corner without magnets. We found two were safer.

                  Harry
                  Thanks Harry, to add to my DIY border reply above, the thing I need to work on is getting a secure connection to the existing track so the surface is completely flat across the track and border. I haven't really messed with it much but the borders I now have are supported underneath by foam board and simply rely on the weight of the track to hold them in place and that's not enough. I have a ton of those red clips though... I think I can make something work.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DRW-FJ40 View Post
                    ...board and simply rely on the weight of the track to hold them in place and that's not enough. I have a ton of those red clips though... I think I can make something work.

                    I made my own for several years. Hot glue works. I will tell you that I've since switched to all Carrera borders. I even have some that I have cut down to fit certain spots. It was really, really difficult for me to get a perfect fit from my homemade efforts, and if you run w/o magnets, a less than perfect fit is an invitation to de-slot. Not much better than a lack of borders.
                    Last edited by b.yingling; 03-09-2016, 06:56 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by b.yingling View Post
                      I made my own for several years. Hot glue works. I will tell you that I've since switched to all Carrera borders. I even have some that I have cut down to fit certain spots. It was really, really difficult for me to get a perfect fit from my homemade efforts, and if you run w/o magnets, a less than perfect fit is an invitation to de-slot. Not much better than a lack of borders.
                      Hot glue? Now why didn't I think of that. I was meticulous about cutting the inside diameter on mine but what happens is the track connections have some wiggle room and I find that I'm having to wiggle the curves because the geometry of the track layout doesn't match up with start point perfectly and probably more so, I've got a tight fit in certain sections and after I did the landscaping, some sections were even tighter requiring that I tweak a curve somewhere else to get it to fit and then the border no longer matches up.

                      I've also thought about cutting them down as you've done. a while back I needed a single straight and friend said "ah.. just cut a standard straight in half" and I was surprised how well that worked. Also, a hybrid method: I use the standard Carrera borders with the red clips, trim as needed and hot glue my custom transitions into place. If I have the borders securely in place, I think it wouldn't be to difficult to get the transition surfaces level with the rest, especially using the hot glue technique.

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                      • #12
                        By the way, I documented how I did one of my borders on my track thread but essentially, I create a pattern in AutoCAD, print it out, use spray adhesive to attach it to foam board, then glue thick (.1") styrene stock sheet to give it rigidity and bring it up just shy of track level and then I laminate a thin (.03") layer of black styrene over top.

                        The latter I do in two steps because I can use the thick styrene as support and just cut and fill with scraps as needed and then I purchase 12" x 24" sheets of black styrene. This way the tires don't rub the paint off and by using a thin layer from large sheets, I minimize the number of seams in the final surface & a lot cheaper and easier to work with than big thick sheets of styrene.

                        I then glue that unit to a second piece of foam board that is cut to match the border & it extends about 4" in to the center of the track. The intention was to give the turn a slight bank and the weight of the track would hold the border in place via the supporting foam board underneath.

                        But the styrene adds too much weight. But this turn in particular, I have a pretty good fit and I think a few dabs of hot glue would do the trick.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DRW-FJ40 View Post
                          Hot glue? Now why didn't I think of that...

                          I never used hot glue before I got the slot bug. Now it's probably the second most used tool in the shed- right behind tiny blade screwdriver . I can see from the picture that your borders are waaaaaaay better fitting than my efforts. Hot glue will likely work just fine.
                          Last edited by b.yingling; 03-09-2016, 08:53 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by b.yingling View Post
                            I never used hot glue before I got the slot bug. Now it's probably the second most used tool in the shed- right behind tiny blade screwdriver .
                            I hear ya! I was building an "alternative" themed dollhouse. It was a Tiki bar with a thatched roof & I was trying to put Coconut fiber on as thatching with super glue and someone suggested hot glue gun. I thought of them as sort of a cheap craft tool... and they are! I think I have a $3 Walmart mini and I've went through several hundred sticks with it.

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                            • #15
                              Here are a couple of ideas I've been playing with relative to the "hybrid" method. The red outlines are standard Carrera 4" borders and the blue outlines are my proposed transition pieces that I would just hot glue in place. Let me know if you all think these transitions would work better than the Carrera ones.





                              This is my esse section. The green is custom borders I've already done and the blue is my proposed DIY. Through the esses, I have 3" on the outside radius and 2" on the inside. I don't know if that's enough but I don't have a lot of space to work with in there. In reality, I'll use some iteration of my template but I'll have to custom fit them individually. The curve section in the middle is super tight and since it's not elevated and I've already landscaped... I'm not sure how much I can do in there but for now this is what I have:

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