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NC-2 vs NC-5 vs NC-6

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  • ElSecundo
    started a topic NC-2 vs NC-5 vs NC-6

    NC-2 vs NC-5 vs NC-6

    We had an interesting opportunity last night to run NC-2's against NC-5's and NC-6's, head-to-head, on a track (Scaley Sport) with a 42-foot straight. First, I ran the NC-2 car (M3 GTR with ProRace red gears) against a NC-5 powered Megane. Lap after lap, dead even down the 42-foot straight, end to end. Acceleration was identical, top end was identical, and no car pulled ahead of the other in the middle when one car 'ran out of gear'.

    Just for fun, I put the NSX Tuner car with the NC-6 against the same NC-5 Megane. Lap after lap, dead even down the 42-foot straight, end to end.

    When I say dead even, the front of one car is never more than 2 inches ahead of the other's front -- it was that close, over and over and over.

    Are these motors really that different?

  • ElSecundo
    replied
    Hey, Greg -- 18" ProRace wheels, and the shore A25's to go with them.

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  • SpeedRacer
    replied
    Hey Kurt:
    What were the wheels/tires on the rear of the M3?
    If they were the stock ones, they are smaller diameter than the JGTC wheel/tire combos on the Megane's.

    I took an NC2 out of my old M3GTR (Red Bull) and dropped an NC5 in it. It shaved about 0.5sec off per lap on our tracks at HSARC (with stock wheels/tires/gearing), but it proved to be a lot more to handle with the torque in the corners (no-mag of course).

    Greg

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  • SlotsNZ
    replied
    Motor Load

    Originally posted by Da Vols View Post
    SlotzNZ - Are you sure about those amp draw numbers for the Ninco's...I've run them on 1A wall units without a problem, yet a motor like a 48K Cheetah or Falcon will cause the wall unit to cease giving power after some laps - and those motors don't draw as much as what you posted...roughly 2A on full acceleration and 1A or so constant running on a Pyramid variable at 14V...just wondering as all Ninco motors are rated for "home use" power.

    Da Vols - Bruce & Harriet
    Yep, absolutely. And as Mark said, it's due partly to the multiple magnets, but remember most motor figures are quoted free spinning. Certainly Robert Livingstone's often quoted figures track/agree with everything I have measured for various types of motor - when the motor is free spinning, or maybe with axle and wheels free spinning.

    When the motors are subjected to heavy loads -over a pound of downforce - say 600 - 1,000gms, the "peak load" generated by the engine not spinning freely is significantly greater. Once up to speed they are still heavily loaded and taking around 1.25 amps per motor, as opposed to the roughly 400ma initial draw and 200ma at speed they would generate free spinning.

    Falcon V is rated at 4 amps peak draw . . . from everything I have read isn't it?

    We measure on the club track with the 25 amp switchmode supply, and I run several linear regulated laboratory supplies at home with the same sorts of readings. I use a 2 amp variable lab supply for my 8 x R2 Ninco curve "skidpan" and at 13 volts on the inner lane (throw off point) the supply sometimes maxes out and shuts down LOL. They are RIGHT On the limit, 1.9 plus amps. - Magnets plus lateral forces on the tyres and gears.

    I run a 1 amp laboratory regulated supply for my tyre clean and sanding pan, and that will max out on several motors if you load them up heavily, whereas with the back wheels free spinning, those same motors are drawing only 100 - 250ma.

    Another interesting point is to track current draw when doing wet break in. I have taken to doing a few of these, starting off at 6 volts, running up to 9 or 10 to flush, or as the break in progresses. Just having the armature in water creates NC-6 loads of 300ma at 6 volts, up to 900ma at 11 volts - without a pinion, or 1 amp WITH a pinion at 11 volts . . .
    During the break in the motor will rev up and down quite a bit, as carbon shorts out the commutators - especially if the "run in" is not from new - but after some dry use. As break in progresses, the the commutator area cleans up, the revs even out, increase, and the current draw reduces up to 20% from initial readings. Oh, and end result. Higher revving, smoother engines.

    - I sure hope my club competitors aren't reading this, I need a couple of weeks respite . . . Ninco open has turned into a very hotly contested class at club.

    I have also discovered a wee "silver bullet" for wet break ins - PM me anyone who wants a little boost in this area.

    For the record, I run a 3 amp linear regulated suppply for my 3 lane woodie - which is sufficient when the 3 cars have no magnet loading - 3 decent motors like slot.it Ninco, spirit or Scale Auto 28K will kick the meter to 3 amps on simultaneuous acceleration from standing start, but with no discernible lag or overload to cause voltage drops or surging which would occur if the supply became overloaded to the point of losing voltage/shutting down despite the regulation.

    That supply was barely enough for my 2 lane Ninco - because of the downforce from multiple magnets when testing cars for the "open" class.
    Last edited by SlotsNZ; 07-29-2007, 04:27 PM.

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  • Mark
    replied
    Bruce, I believe those numbers are from Ninco cars with a lot more than the stock magnets. Just to give an example, an NSR 38.5k long can motor is supposed to draw 2-3amps constant when running. Well, least to say the way they are ran at the local 1/32 track, they pull 6-8amps from a dead stop and stay at a constant 3-4amps running. These are cars weighing in at 1000+ grams of magnetic force.

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  • Da Vols
    replied
    SlotzNZ - Are you sure about those amp draw numbers for the Ninco's...I've run them on 1A wall units without a problem, yet a motor like a 48K Cheetah or Falcon will cause the wall unit to cease giving power after some laps - and those motors don't draw as much as what you posted...roughly 2A on full acceleration and 1A or so constant running on a Pyramid variable at 14V...just wondering as all Ninco motors are rated for "home use" power.

    Da Vols - Bruce & Harriet

    Leave a comment:


  • PeteN95
    replied
    The gearing makes a big difference in the NC-2. The NC-2 BMW has 3:1 (black), while the NC-5 AW cars come with 12/32 or 2.62:1 (red). I put the red gearing in my NC-2 BMW and it now flys on my short Sport track nonmag, right with the NC-5 cars.

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  • ElSecundo
    replied
    Originally posted by da_rainbow View Post
    It could be that when you crank the voltage the performance doesnt vary as much.
    Scaley wall warts. 15+ volts measured under load.

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  • SlotsNZ
    replied
    Experience on Ninco track and wood

    Kurt has forgotten more about slots than I'll probably ever know, so I put it down to a mixture of circuit and car choice and setup, in combination.

    We run a "Ninco Modified" class at our local club on Ninco track, and allow as much magnet as you like - fact is, too much mag. just slows them down, so it's always a balance. We're down to pretty much 5 seconds dead on this 98 foot track, so they're flying. All the competitive drivers run NC-6. We note a differrence of between 0.5 and 0.75, for the same car, running NC-6 vs. NC-5. The heavy loading really bring the NC-6 through.
    These motors pull 2.5 amps at take off (each), and 1.25 amps or more at running speeds. 5 amps average continuous load (4 lanes on 25 amp, switchmode power supply set at 13.8 V) that's 10 times R.L.'s free spinning motor tests, due to the high downforces.

    This is the track.


    Under heavy load, the NC-6 is, as expected a country mile faster.
    Most folk use the 13/32 highest gearing, because it is a fast flowing circuit.
    [Note for Bob: How DO you kill one of these motors????]

    We have killed one, a guy glued the whole motor, axle bush together in a panic repair, then tried to keep up with the pack for 4 heats - it cooked the magnets.) I THOUGHT I cooked one, but decided to give it a "bath" yesterday - four hours in water, and a couple of doses of warm water and detergent to speed out the flush of the carbon . . beggar me, it's now my fastest motor on the dyno and under load.

    We also run them a bit on a largish wood track (no mag obviously) and mostly keep the same gearing - sheer laziness on my part.
    This one - 100ft.



    We generally run them 13.8 volt here as well.

    The NC-6 cars are also a lot faster here, more punch out of corners, and most importantly, more brake.

    Lap times with to slot.its with the old 25K motor or new 21.5K orange endbell motor, using identical tyres are pretty close. The best slot.it chassis Mclaren and Nissan, - have a small edge, to be expected given their extreme low chassis and C.O.G. compared to the Ninco Mosler running 18" pro-race wheels and axles in the factory standard position, set up for the plastic track.

    NC-5 powered cars aren't close to this performance level.

    I also have a few NC-2 motors out of a batch of older cars, and likewise found the red can ones to be almost indistinguishable from NC-5, and a measure faster than the earlier black can NC-2s.

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  • da_rainbow
    replied
    It could be that when you crank the voltage the performance doesnt vary as much.

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  • ElSecundo
    replied
    Missing info

    This is a magged configuration for each car, and we were running at 15+ volts. Stock (red plastic) gearing on the NSX and Megane, ProRace red on the M3.

    But yes, this is a single occurrence. What I do know is that on my 12 foot straight, three identical cars are rarely neck and neck beginning to end, let alone 3 different cars with supposedly different motors on a 42 foot straight. The fact that it's 3 cars, not just 2, is pretty odd. I'm going to be able to get all 3 cars to a magnet marshal tomorrow.

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  • Wet Coast Racer
    replied
    Missing information

    What Kurt hasn't mentioned, is whether or not these cars were running with magnets; this would be where the more powerful motors would be able to shine, instead of spinning the wheels, one would think.

    Or at least, I would.

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  • Robert Livingston
    replied
    I have tested all those motors in my independent lab (my basement), altho Ninco Bob has been kind enough to supply a few loaner motors for some of the RPM tests. I have some experience driving them in other peoples' cars in the RAA '06 , and the GPR '07.

    The earlier NC-2 had an all-black label, and turned the advertized 18k RPM on 14.8v. The red-wrapper NC-2 (the last two years) was nearly indistinguishable from the NC-5, as if the later production NC2's were really NC-5's. Both reved tov the same 20k or so on 14.8v. The NC-6 revved as advertized, and was notably faster in cars.

    Kurt's observation of similar times from NC2 and NC5 are consistent with my measurements and racing observations.
    Last edited by Robert Livingston; 07-27-2007, 06:13 PM.

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  • Racerdoug
    replied
    NC 5 & NC 6 powered Meganes

    I have 3 Meganes set up magnetless that I run more than ant other car I own.The first 2 I built with the NC 5. Great motor,super smooth. The third was a Pro Race Megane,and I used the NC 6 that came in the kit. Killer motor!!! Perfect balance of speed and torque.This car holds the track record on my 110' track! Just bought 3 more NC 6s(gotta upgrade the fleet)Ninco,great motor and MORE Meganes please.

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  • NINCO1
    replied
    Hi Martini,
    I agree with with your descriptions about the performance of the 2,5 & 6, and that should be the results normally attained. I also agree with your recommendations of what to compare when testing different configurations.
    Knowing ElS, and his racing backround, and his knowledge of setting up cars, I feel confident he is not in the twilight zone.... he was simply making a very interesting observation based on a single testing experience.

    Think Red!
    Bob/NINCO1

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