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  • Race results for Monday, 10/22/12

    14 drivers showed up, enabling us to run marshalled races. Thanks to Billy, for his help
    on the button; and to Stan, for marshalling the last race.

    Pretty quiet, pre-race. A few of us thought the cars were acting "a little funny", during
    practice. After a couple of hours, Ron came in and asked if anyone had checked the
    track voltage setting. We all looked at one another, and, sure enough, it was set at 12 v.
    instead of the usual no-magnet 11 v.. Practice started all over again - ha!

    The shop owner made a quantom leap, and put aside his trusty Parma controller for
    a 15 band PM controller. As C-Bill said, it seems like only yesterday that Ron insisted that
    a Boxer 2 inline was the way to go with the old Group C1 cars! In some things, Ron has been
    on the "trailing edge" of technology - ha!

    After hearing about his (fictional?) "South Towns Racing Team" for years, Russ decided he
    would develop this "team" classification a little further. Sometimes the so called "teams"
    were somewhat geograhic, by where people lived; sometimes not. Remember, this is coming
    from Russ; and quickly & laughingly embraced by the rest of us.

    After he heard the rumor that Al had his own stool, next to Chris' chair, at Chris' work bench,
    Russ developed this car building senario a little further.
    Russ invented the "RTR Racing Team" as his attempt to classify those influenced by the car
    building strategy of those living in Rochester (Honeoye Falls, Chris); Tonawanda (City of Tonawanda, Al); and Rochester (Phelps or ?, Roger). Apparently any part of NY State that is
    East or South of Rochester, is not on the maps that Russ uses - ha!.
    Even though he is from Kaisertown (Buffalo), Scott was included in the "RTR Team", by the mastermind of classification, Russ.

    Now the rest of us typically included in the "South Towns Racing Team", aka "Big Tree Racing
    Team", drivers like Russ, Steve, Doug, etc.. Yesterday, it was decided that they needed a
    token Canadian (er, I mean, international representative) so, "Mr. Head" was added to the
    south towns team. See, I told you that the teams were only "somewhat" geographic - ha!

    Of course there is the traditional Ace Hobby Racing Team, the core of which is Yellow Dog,
    and Ron.

    Now, not everyone exactly buys in to the "team classification & make up". Some still insist that they are "independent builders"; yada yada yada...
    However, in any case, we all had a lot of fun & laughs!

    Can Am

    14 drivers put up a car, a couple of Ferrari 312's, a couple of Alfa's, a Chaparral, & mostly
    Ford GT40's. The race was fast, and close, with 6 drivers with over 67.15 laps.
    Scott, Yellow Dog, & C-Bill were on the podium. It was Scott's first win at Ace Hobby,
    congratulations. He wore the (Burger King) crown with good nature, after Ron finally found
    it in the construction debris.

    1.Scott, 69.45 laps. New record for the most laps, in class.
    2.Yellow Dog, 68.75 3rd most laps, in class.
    3.C-Bill, 67.90
    4.Al, 67.75
    5.Chris, 67.70
    6.Russ, 67.15
    7.Ron, 66.10
    8.Tom, 66.05
    9.Gill, 64.75
    10.Roger, 64.35
    11.Tony, 64.15
    12.Tim, 63.45
    13.Steve, 62.30
    14.Max, 51.00 DNF, controller problems.

    fast laps:
    yellow, 10.074 seconds; white, 10.256; blue, 10.089; red, 10.191. All by Scott!

    Group C2's

    14 cars were on the starting grid. A little bit of everything in Group C, with the largest
    group being Porsche 962 high tails, and 956's.
    The race was very fast, with the top 5 finishers all with over 70.15 laps. 11 drivers had over
    65.70 laps. Chris, Al, and Tom were on the podium. Congratulations.

    1.Chris, 72.40 laps. New class lap record.
    2.Al, 71.02 3rd most laps, in class.
    3.Tom, 70.85
    4.Roger, 70.35
    5.Yellow Dog, 70.15
    6.Russ, 68.85
    7.Ron, 68.50
    8.Gill, 68.40
    9.C-Bill, 68.15
    10.Steve, 67.15
    11.Tim, 65.70
    12.Tony, 60.90
    13.Scott, 59.50 Mechanical problems, loose screws.
    14.Max, 53.50 Controller problems.

    fast laps:
    yellow, Chris 9.595 seconds.
    white, Chris 9.579
    blue, Al 9.611
    red, Al 9.687

    Trans Am

    9 drivers took the starting flag. The race was fast, and close, with 6 drivers having over
    65.10 laps. Chris, Scott, & Russ were on the podium. Congratulations. It sure looks like the 1970's when these cars are on the track.

    1.Chris, 68.10 laps. 2nd most laps, in class.
    2.Scott, 67.70. 3rd most laps, in class.
    3.Russ, 67.10
    4.Yellow Dog, 66.35
    5.Ron, 65.35
    6.Al, 65.10
    7.Tim, 63.45
    8.Gill, 62.25
    9.Tony, 58.35

    fast laps:
    yellow, Russ 10.209 seconds.
    white, Chris 10.287
    blue, Russ 10.336
    red, Chris 10.379

    Thanks to Ron, at Ace Hobby, for the track time, and for staying open late so the races
    could finish. Thanks to the drivers who came.

    Next Monday, 10/29/12, is an odd numbered day of the month, so the classes raced will be:
    DP, GT, & NASCAR.

    Class Lap Records can be seen on post # 397, of this thread.

    Tom
    Last edited by T man; 10-23-2012, 01:37 PM. Reason: addition

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JBriggsK9 View Post
      I forgot about that one..... not knowing jack about watts, I take it you mean any motor up to the new RS motor??

      And will it be open to ALL manufactures of the LMP car?? there are a good number of them out there to pick from and it would be nice to see them all included in the class.... much wider selection in the bodies and chassis that way...

      Chris
      Motors up to 18.3 watts would be the Slot.it orange Boxer 2 @ 18.3 watts and a NSR @ 18.1 watts and everything else 18.3 watts or lower on the Slotcar News motor list. Lots of motors for lots of cars.
      Bodies and chassis must be all plastic RTR origins. No mixing of bodies and chassis. Pods, ok if both chassis came RTR with pods and they are drop in(like Slot.it and Scaleauto and/or Sideways)
      The year 2000 24hr of LM had 16 different LMP cars and 2012 had 12 different LMP cars, that's 28 different cars. If it raced, it's in. I don't care who makes it.
      All other regular rules we use.
      OK?
      Dan

      Comment


      • Motor List

        I wrote this before I saw the previous post, from Yellow Dog. So, some of this may be
        redundent - sorry.

        As mentioned in post #405, everyone should check out R. Livingston's Motor Test List.
        Access this list by going to the Slot Car News web site. Right near the top of the home
        page is a link to the motor test list. Click on it.

        The motor test list is alphabetical, by manufacturer.
        The motor power rating of watts is derived by a fairly intricate calculation involving
        RPM & torque. Most of the power (watt) numbers are derived from the manufacturer's
        rating of their motor in RPM & torque (in gm/cm). Some of the ratings (shown in red)
        are from R. Livingston's actual motor testing of RPM, & torque, with calculated watts.

        Examples of some motors we might use, (& there are many others) [from the list]:
        Slot-It orange endbell, tested at 9.8 w..
        Slot-It red endbell, tested at 16.7 - 18.1 w..
        NSR Shark "S" can, 30k, rated at 15.8 w..
        NSR King boxer, 21.4k, 322 gm/cm, rated at 16.7 w.
        NSR King boxer, 21.4K, 350 gm/cm, not on list yet.
        Slot-It Flat 6, rated at 10.3 w..
        Slot-It Flat 6R, rated at 12.1 w..
        Slot-It Flat 6RS, rated at 15.0 w..
        Slot-It Boxer 2, tested at 18.3 w..

        As we know, motor power is not everything. Handling, weight, traction, etc., etc., all
        factor in. Look at how well the orange endbell Group C2 cars are doing. Or, how well the two Audi R8C A/W'ers, with a Flat 6R, did last week in GT1.

        However power is a good starting point, and an indicator how one motor
        may do against another; if it was possible to make all other things equal (which it is probably
        not possible).

        So, for example, right now in the GT1 class, we have designated "allowed" motors, by manufacturer, so far. The most powerful "allowed" motor, according to the motor test list,
        is the Boxer 2 @18.3 watts. This is where the 18.3 watts, or less, references come in.

        Tom
        Last edited by T man; 10-23-2012, 06:05 PM. Reason: addition

        Comment


        • OK that sounds great, I was worried that some manufactures would be left out of the mix.

          And while I am still on my rocking the boat kick ...... Why all of the sudden in the last few months are we talking "Watts" to rate motors by? And not RPMs THE WAY WE HAVE ALWASY RATED MOTORS. to me it is much easier to understand rating in RPMs, and I will be the first to agree that not all motors are created equal.. It just can't happen.. And I know that car set up, tires and driver can make a lower rated motor run as well as a higher rated motor...

          But looking at the numbers using the watts rating make no sense to me... Look at the 30k red end bell it is rated at 16.7 to 18.1 watts and the Shark also a 30k motor is only rated at only 15.8 watts?? A 30k motor is a 30k motor, and again I know that all motor are not created equal..
          Now look at the 21.5k boxer motors... The NSR is rated at 16.7w while the Boxer2 is rated at 18.3w and a 22k motor Flat 6r is only rated at 12K????????

          And though is has yet to be tested on the big track you add in a 25k RS motor that is only rated at 15w.. And the testing I have done on my track shows that the 25k RS motor is in fact faster than the boxer2 motor or the flat 6R motor... On Monday I will do the test on the big track...

          Now I understand that if we are talking about motors for the LMP class that with a cap of 18.3w this is a mute point as all motors are allowed.. But there has been talk of just adding the S and RS motors into the GT1 class and that does not seem right if it is true...

          But my main point is I am just trying to understand the need to change our motor rating system form something we have always use and all of us understand..

          Chris

          Comment


          • motor ratings

            I am not beating the drum for watt ratings; just trying to explain it, and why it is usable info..

            RPM, alone, is not usually an effective guide.
            Two factors affect a motor's performance, RPM and torque. A motor's ability to do
            work is the power rating. The rpm number, and the torque number (measured in gm/cm)
            are both plugged into a complicated formula, and cranked out on a calculator. This derives
            the power rating, in watts. Changes in torque seem to affect the results more than RPM.

            Some manufacturers probably rate their motors at very close to their actual performance
            (in RPM, and torque).
            Some manufacturers probably rate their motors conservatively, compared to their
            actual performance. These examples of a particular motor would then actually perform better
            than the manufacturers rating, and resulting power rating.

            In manufacturing, and testing, there will be a range of specifications that result in an
            acceptable motor. The stated RPM, and torque, must take into account the lowest
            performing motors that are accepted and shipped out. So, all the other motors that are
            average, or above average, should exceed the manufacturer's stated RPM, and torque.
            We see this all of the time, especially with orange endbells.

            Looking at the motor testing list, accessed through the Slot Car News home page, all this
            shows up. Manufacturer's ratings are in black, actual 3rd party testing is in red.

            For example:
            NSR Shark 30k, 30,000 RPM, 210 gm/cm torque, power = 15.8 watts. (manufacturer's rating)
            No actual 3rd party test, in red.
            Slot-It red endbell, 29,000 RPM, 160 gm/cm torque, power = 11.6 watts. (manuf. rating)
            Slot-It red endbell, 30,660 - 32,392 RPM, 216 - 240 torque, power = 16.7 - 18.1 watts. (test)
            So, in actual use, the 29k red endbell may outperform the 30k NSR.

            another example:
            NSR King ev2 21.4k, 21,400 RPM, 322 gm/cm torque, power = 16.8 watts. (manuf. rating)
            NSR King ev2 21.4k, 22,850 RPM, 292 torque, power = 16.7 watts. (3rd party test)
            Here, the tested torque was less, but the tested RPM was more, so the power was only .1 w off)
            Slot-It Boxer 2, 21,500 RPM, 340 gm/cm torque, power = 18.3 watts. (manuf. rating)
            No actual 3rd party test, in red. The torque gives this motor it's power.
            NSR King ev3 21.4k, 21,400 RPM, 350 gm/cm torque, power = ? (not yet on motor list)
            In theory, should perform pretty close to / better than the Boxer 2.

            another example:
            Why do Slot-It orange endbell usually do so well? Their rated RPM is one thing.
            Their actual 3rd party tested RPM is much higher than the rating. So, they outperform
            what we think they will do, by just looking at the rated RPM and torque.

            As has been said many times, there are a lot of factors that affect a motor's performance
            in a slot car. Is the power usable? Can it be turned into grip without waste or chattering?
            How is the handling? Does one type of motor / drivetrain handle better than another?
            Do you want handling, raw power / speed, or (hopefully) both?

            Weight. Overall weight of a car affects its performance. Different types of motors weigh more
            than others.
            A Boxer 2, or a NSR KING, weighs about 11 - 14 grams MORE than a "S" can.
            A Flat 6 (any type), weighs less than a Boxer, but more than a 'S" can.

            So, how is the power rating of a motor (in watts) usable to us?
            It gives us an idea of how a motor should perform, relative to another motor. Power gives us
            a way to compare what one motor might do vs. another motor, on a common scale.
            RPM is not usually an effective guide, by itself. The watts rating of a motor puts it on a
            continuum with other types / manufacturers of motors, so we might compare them, as a starting point.

            I think this will be especialy valuable with the upcoming modern LMP class. So many possible
            manufacturers, and so many choices in motor types & drive trains. Especially if you don't
            already own one, and have to choose what to buy, to start your build.

            To list all "allowed" motors, in some classes, is tedious & sometimes redundent. It's easy when
            the spec. motor is an orange endbell. Much more of a pain when there are a lot of manufacturers
            and motors to be included.

            So, as was said in "Star Wars": Luke Skywalker, embrace the force. (watts) - ha!

            Tom
            Last edited by T man; 10-24-2012, 04:08 PM. Reason: spelling

            Comment


            • I say leave as it is ............... And for get about Watts .......

              Comment


              • Tom

                Thanks for the info. on how they arrive at the watts ratings.. At least now I know how it is done..

                But I still don't see how a watts rating ALONE will help up pick out motors for our classes. It can help decide what manufactures motor maybe the fastest with the same RPM ratings..

                As a racer I and most of the others want to know two things... how fast the motor will go "RPMs" and as we all know what is written on the motor is only a ball park figure of what the motor will do.. And how fast the motor will get to the suggested rpms " torque"

                the higher the torque the harder the motor comes on and jumps you out of the turns and the twitcher it maybe to drive, the lower the torque the softer it will come on allowing you to get out of the turns smoother.. making it a easier motor to drive.

                If we go to a watts rating ALONE it does not give me that info.. Yes it can help me pick the better motor of different manufactires within the same RPM ratings but no more.



                Chris

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JBriggsK9 View Post
                  Tom

                  Thanks for the info. on how they arrive at the watts ratings.. At least now I know how it is done..

                  But I still don't see how a watts rating ALONE will help up pick out motors for our classes. It can help decide what manufactures motor maybe the fastest with the same RPM ratings..

                  As a racer I and most of the others want to know two things... how fast the motor will go "RPMs" and as we all know what is written on the motor is only a ball park figure of what the motor will do.. And how fast the motor will get to the suggested rpms " torque"

                  the higher the torque the harder the motor comes on and jumps you out of the turns and the twitcher it maybe to drive, the lower the torque the softer it will come on allowing you to get out of the turns smoother.. making it a easier motor to drive.

                  If we go to a watts rating ALONE it does not give me that info.. Yes it can help me pick the better motor of different manufactires within the same RPM ratings but no more.



                  Chris
                  Watts will tell you if two motors with different RPM's and torque put out the same power. It is a way to group dissimilar motors so that racers will have a choice between (For them) an undrivable car and a competitive one.
                  Not everyone has your tuning and driving skills and I would like to keep those folks around long enough to develop and have fun.
                  Dan

                  Comment


                  • Watts listed for Slot-It Flat 6 RS & R motors at Fantasy World

                    Something that I have found while looking at Fantasy World's website about Slot-It's Flat 6 (Black) RS = 25,500 RPM, 240 G at 15W, Slot-It's (Orange) Flat 6 R = 22,500 RPM, 230 G, at 12.5W, See for yourself. Unfortunitily the Watts aren't listed for the Red or Yellow Slot-It Flat 6 motors.
                    (Even though I don't know what the Watts fully mean for slot car motors, I do know that even though I am a Mechanical ENgineer that doesn't understand very much about anything Electrical, I do know Volts won't hurt you much but the Wattage which has to do with the real power with electricity. You can be electricuted with 40,000 volts and not have it hurt you, but with 10 volts at over 25 watts can kill.)(Big Bill might say otherwise, but this was something that an former boss of mine told me)

                    Steve "Blueflashbarnes"

                    Comment


                    • Stock rear tires

                      Dan,

                      The McLaren F1 GTR A/Wer Fina car comes with 17 x 8 stock rear wheels.
                      The New Porsche 911 GT1 EVO98 A/Wer comes with 17 x 10 stock rear wheels.

                      -Scott

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by yellowdog View Post
                        Watts will tell you if two motors with different RPM's and torque put out the same power. It is a way to group dissimilar motors so that racers will have a choice between (For them) an undrivable car and a competitive one.
                        Not everyone has your tuning and driving skills and I would like to keep those folks around long enough to develop and have fun.
                        Dan
                        Dan

                        I think that is what I did say in my post.. And yes I agree with that part of the watts rating 100%. When it comes to fine tuning your motor selections.. Not what is the fastest motor you can choose from a wide range of motors..

                        And yes I fully understand that

                        I think the problem is we have a communication problem in what we are saying and seeing..

                        All I hear you talking about is "watts" for rating our motors... example..

                        "Motors up to 18.3 watts would be the Slot.it orange Boxer 2 @ 18.3 watts and a NSR @ 18.1 watts and everything else 18.3 watts or lower on the Slotcar News motor list. Lots of motors for lots of cars.
                        Bodies and chassis must be all plastic RTR origins. No mixing of bodies and chassis. Pods, ok if both chassis came RTR with pods and they are drop in(like Slot.it and Scaleauto and/or Sideways)
                        The year 2000 24hr of LM had 16 different LMP cars and 2012 had 12 different LMP cars, that's 28 different cars. If it raced, it's in. I don't care who makes it.
                        All other regular rules we use."

                        this is your statement on the new rules for the LMP class you posted.. You gave me a max watts rating.. great but that alone does not telll me what the max RPM cap is to find what is the fastest motor we can use.. It tells me what motor has the most power but not what one has the most speed..
                        Not when 18.3 watts is the rating for a boxer2 21.5 rpm motor, and the watts rating for the 25K
                        RS motor is 12.something.. A new racer would think the a 18.3 watts motor will be faster than a 12 something motor.. Hell I would think that too... I look at the watts alone # and think that is my cap and the fastest motor I can get, when in fact it is not... That is what is so confusing about using just the term watts..
                        So as I see it just saying the word watts does not tell me what motor will give me the best motor to pick for a class..

                        Now if your statement were to read

                        "Motors up to 18.3 watts with a max RPM cap of 25k"

                        Now this gives me all the info I need to start to pick out motors for my cars... I know the cap is 25k and the watts range is up to 18.3
                        Now I can use the watts to find a motor close to the RPM cap and give me the type of power, Hard or soft I want for my driving style...

                        " Slot.it orange Boxer 2 @ 18.3 watts and a NSR @ 18.1 watts and everything else 18.3 watts or lower on the Slotcar News motor list. Lots of motors for lots of cars."

                        Now I don't need to hunt up some online list ( and some don't have computers remember) To find motors.. All I need to do is look at the motors Ron had on the board and see what he has I can use in the right RPM and Watts range..

                        This may be what you are thinking but only the watts term comes out.. I don't know...

                        I fully agree with the watts system being a good system to help sort out motors in the same RPM and torque range to match someones driving style... But to use the watts system along to set up a motor class when you have a wide range of motors to choose from makes it very confusing.

                        Everyone is looking to find the fastest motors (total RPMs) they can get, with a power (watts) they can control.. So the two systems really need to be used together to tell someone a true motor rating.

                        Chris

                        Comment


                        • Stirring, stirring the pot...

                          Personally I want RPM and torque in grams, the watts is a nice check on reality but I still need the two other numbers. If for example you had two motors both rated at 16 watts and one had high rpm and low torque and the other low rpm and high torque (as I understand the calculation you could arrive at the same watts from both scenarios) and both were S cans running inline theoretically we could both get to the same speed using different gear ratios. The high torque motor using a lower numerical ratio and the high rpm motor using a high numerical ratio. Now if clearance were an issue, and when isn't it, the higher torque motor lets me use a smaller gear. That a good piece of information to have there....but hey, We can always use Robert's list. Little more salt, yup, it's done.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SCX Racer View Post
                            Dan,

                            The McLaren F1 GTR A/Wer Fina car comes with 17 x 8 stock rear wheels.
                            The New Porsche 911 GT1 EVO98 A/Wer comes with 17 x 10 stock rear wheels.

                            -Scott
                            Thank you for the info I asked for.
                            Dan

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Biggy View Post
                              Personally I want RPM and torque in grams, the watts is a nice check on reality but I still need the two other numbers. If for example you had two motors both rated at 16 watts and one had high rpm and low torque and the other low rpm and high torque (as I understand the calculation you could arrive at the same watts from both scenarios) and both were S cans running inline theoretically we could both get to the same speed using different gear ratios. The high torque motor using a lower numerical ratio and the high rpm motor using a high numerical ratio. Now if clearance were an issue, and when isn't it, the higher torque motor lets me use a smaller gear. That a good piece of information to have there....but hey, We can always use Robert's list. Little more salt, yup, it's done.
                              For the past couple of years Slot.it has been putting Watts, RPM and torque on every motor package.
                              Dan

                              Comment


                              • I have checked with other clubs about watts . They ALL use a certain RPM in each class . ex: . Fine tuning 22,000 rpm in one class by using Watts, basically for more or less torque. They don't use Watts with different motors with different RPMs (like 21,000 rpm with 25,000 rpm ) because RPM is the speed of the motor. 21,000 will always be 21,000....25,000 is 25,000 ... We were lucky to find a S-can motor (29,000 rpms)for sidewinder setup that would run close to what a Boxer can motor (22,000 or 21,400) in anglewinder ...the unfortunate part is that the watts in the S-can is close to the large torque of the Boxer can .. If you put a 25,000 Boxer can against a 21,4000 Boxer can, which is FASTER ?

                                Comment

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