It is a warm day on the West Coast, so I trust we can all remain cool...during these discussions. I have publicly and in person congratulated the organizers for an excellent series in 2011/2012.
To me the old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it" rings true in this case. Here are a few facts:
Results:
There were 4 Fly Racing BMWs in the top 10 and 4 Spirit Peugeots. One Opel (it finished ahead of my own Fly Racing BMW) and a Scalextric Mercedes that only came second by a couple of points. It does not appear as if the Fly BMW dominated the series.
Earlier this morning, prior to seeing all the new post I took this picture and a few quick measurements. I am fortunate to own a few of the cars eligible (at least based on last years list) for the series.
Measured across the widest part of the rear wheel fender the following cars all measure 60mm (+/- 0.2mm)
Spirit Peugeot 406, Ninco Opel DTM, Ninco Audi TT, Fly Racing BMW, Fly Racing BMW, Ninco Mercedes, Avant Slot Subaru.
The others:
The Scalextric Mercedes 60.5mm and the Spirit Silhouette 406 - 64.5mm. The body of the "racing" version of the Spirit Silhouette (white kite with lexan interior) = 20.9g.
My proposal, leave the list and rules as is, forget about the Subaru and the Silhouette and lets RACE!
I like the proposed 2.4" outside of tire to outside of tire. I would also like the Pug Sil to be legal. I can see no advantage for the Pug Sil if... the above tire width rule is implemented. The cream always rises to the top That said, Rico & Steve will still enter the car's to beat no matter what car they enter.
I would also like the Pug Sil to be legal. I can see no advantage for the Pug Sil if... the above tire width rule is implemented.
Let me first say that I am a a big fan of Big Jack, fine multiple proxy host, fine score keeper for the TLORP and he paints nice lime green proxy cars, so it is hard'ish for me to disagree with him!
Regardless of the the slot car performance advantages for this model (btw I have 5 of these cars and they are all VERY fast) the Peugeot 406 Silhouette is not a real production car. The other touring cars raced across the world and that are on the current eligibility list, are slightly modified production cars.
The Peugeot Silhouette was a body designed by Pininfarina placed on a class standard (similar to Nascar) tubular chassis build by Oreca and a 300hp engine with Hewland transmission for the French Supertouring Car Championship circa 2001. You could not go to your local Peugeot dealer and buy that car, unlike the Alfa, BMW and the "regular" 406.
Let me first say that I am a a big fan of Big Jack, fine multiple proxy host, fine score keeper for the TLORP and he paints nice lime green proxy cars, so it is hard'ish for me to disagree with him!
Regardless of the the slot car performance advantages for this model (btw I have 5 of these cars and they are all VERY fast) the Peugeot 406 Silhouette is not a real production car. The other touring cars raced across the world and that are on the current eligibility list, are slightly modified production cars.
The Peugeot Silhouette was a body designed by Pininfarina placed on a class standard (similar to Nascar) tubular chassis build by Oreca and a 300hp engine with Hewland transmission for the French Supertouring Car Championship circa 2001. You could not go to your local Peugeot dealer and buy that car, unlike the Alfa, BMW and the "regular" 406.
Thank you for the kind words. See, we can agree to disagree without getting our "yellow band weiners" in an uproar
I still would like to have the Pug Sil legal but I won't if it is deemed a no go
BTW" my two Sil versions are 63.68 ( 2.507) and 64.17 ( 2.526) My two "reg Pugs" are 2.322 and 2.320
Jack
Last edited by Big Jack; 08-15-2012 at 01:00 PM.
Reason: more stuff
you know some of this is really gettin` "nit picki " , and my audi TT from ninco measures 2.3135 (and yes i can read a fine instrument , as i make very fine/accurate ammunition) wide at the rear wheel opening at 2 o`clock (left rear) on the outside of the body . the current width of my car at the sidewall is 2.4290 . distance from front axle "center to center" of guide post (best readin`/guess) .646 .
o.k , just what does all that mean/have to do with wether the car is a tourin` car ? some of you guys take all this like some shooters . decide what is racin` and lets get on with it ! they`re called "gamers" . example , take a shot (sportin` clays) to the extreme . it was originaly designed to be a game for your field gun . course guys decided to carry loads and chokes for "given`" shots . they became "gamers" . instead of handlin` all birds with your field gun and a load , now you carry multiple chokes and loads to handle all variation of presented shot !
please decide what cars are in , and how wide my rear track has to be . and regardless if redlynr "likes it or not" set a rear wheel width and stick to it . i need to know . my car currently has the exact width that the oem car came with . it will not fit the "rules" as stock . i have to alter it to "fit" the rules !
As a voice from afar, I say leave the rules exactly as they were this year - they were clear, embraced and accepted by all, and created a reasonably level playing field...
Sadly, this would exclude the Spirit 406 Sil - but to my mind it doesn't represent a Touring Car...
It would, however, probably make a pretty effective device in GT2 of the RAA...
I'd just like to point out that the Peugeot Silhouette competed in touring car racing and won. I see no reason that the car should not be allowed because it's not a touring car. The Peugeot Silhouette was simply an evolved touring car, racing in a major French touring car series.
"In 2001, Supertouring cars were replaced in the series by silhouette cars. Despite the change of class, the series retained its name."
It mainly seems like its not being allowed due to the belief the slot car would be too fast and dominate the series. I'd like to point out the diversity of last years field didn't stifle the competitiveness in any way.
I'd just like to point out that the Peugeot Silhouette competed in touring car racing and won. I see no reason that the car should not be allowed because it's not a touring car. The Peugeot Silhouette was simply an evolved touring car, racing in a major French touring car series.
"In 2001, Supertouring cars were replaced in the series by silhouette cars. Despite the change of class, the series retained its name."
It mainly seems like its not being allowed due to the belief the slot car would be too fast and dominate the series. I'd like to point out the diversity of last years field didn't stifle the competitiveness in any way.
As it turns out our series is not based on any particular series, more a concept of touring cars, mostly those that play well together. So consequently appearance of a particular car in a particular touring car series will never be an adequate decision point.
What we can do is move the start date back and vote on inclusion of some more cars.
If anyone has interest in that, please start a thread.
To quote Martin Mull: "I used to be plastic but now I'm elastic, I'm flexible."
As far as 1:1 racing is concerned, Silhouette cars have nothing to do with touring cars. A silhouette car is basically a pure racing chassis, usually mid engined, topped with a body that resembles a mass production car but is made of fiberglass and has improved aero from the top of the wheel arches and below (and a wing off course). Usually they are wider, lower, lighter, have stronger engines and sophisticated transmissions and they are way too faster than ordinary touring cars.
As far as 1/32 is concerned, ok, there is no point in discussing the 1:1 differences under the body, only the fact that the silhouette 406 is much wider, possibly lower (must measure and see) and may prove much faster. I don't know what will happen if you limit the rear track to a standard width but I see no point in including this car in this series, since there is already a 406 made by the same manufacturer and more fitting to our concept. Apart from a need of a diversity in the field of cars, why are we concidering such an entry after all?
Because the administrator of this proxy is sometimes an idiot.
I decided that it might be ok to add that car. It has not been a popular decision. Of the competitors that did buy the car based on that there are complaints of wasting time and money on a car that can't compete.
Basically all my fault.
So here's my decision.
Anyone that wants to enter a Silhouette car can. They'll run in a separate class and will not compete against the non-Silhouette cars.
I believe this solves the issue of those that feel they have been ripped off on their time and money investment as well as those that feel the cars won't be a fair competitor. This will be the only year for this class and these cars.
There will be no further discussion.
Last edited by kidvoltage; 08-17-2012 at 01:07 AM.
I would also like the Pug Sil to be legal. 
I can see no advantage for the Pug Sil if... the above tire width rule is implemented. The cream always rises to the top 
if it is deemed a no go 
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