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  #1  
Old 06-13-2011, 05:11 AM
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MRollingthunder MRollingthunder is offline
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Default Monogram McClaren 6B of Lothar-Motschenbacher should have a FORD Engine, not Chevy

Did anybody else notice the has been reproduced with apparently the wrong brand of engine represented? Nicely done car, but as presented it is historically incorrect. The McClaren M6B as driven by Lothar Motschenbacher was never powered by a Chevy big block as the model appears to show (equally spaced injection "trumpets" and the distributor to the rear). In fact it was powered by a series FORD power plants (distributor to the front) including a Gurney-Weslake engine. A small detail, but significant to FORD fans. Perhaps if they just reversed the casting as it is mounted in the body?

Photos of his cars can be found at:

http://www.racingsportscars.com/driv...acher-USA.html

Or is it possible the car has been restored and the new owner just went with a Chevy for ease, and the model was duplicated using the wrong motor?
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:27 AM
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Interesting, I had always thought that all of the Mclaren Mk 6's were Chevy powered.
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:24 AM
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Yes, that is interesting. But I wouldn't be too harsh on Monogram for this. On none of the images in the link you provided could you see a distributor at all. At least they got the injector stacks aimed in the right direction.

Scott
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:43 AM
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Hard to see, I agree...but if you check the info provided with each photo it lists the engine manufacturer and capacity. I wondered, because I watched this car race as a kid, and distinctly remember the car being FORD powered in a sea of Chevy's, and the occasional Buick and Oldsmobile. Odd that I don't remember any Mopars from the period, but I'm sure they were tried!


http://www.racingsportscars.com/driv...evson-USA.html

Peter Revson also drove a McClaren M6B for Shelby in the 1968 CanAm series, also Ford Powered.

As did Dan Gurney, Swede Savage and John Canon: http://www.racingsportscars.com/make...en.html?page=5

Mario Andretti and David Hobbs: http://www.racingsportscars.com/make...en.html?page=6



Don M
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRollingthunder View Post
Hard to see, I agree...but if you check the info provided with each photo it lists the engine manufacturer and capacity. I wondered, because I watched this car race as a kid, and distinctly remember the car being FORD powered in a sea of Chevy's, and the occasional Buick and Oldsmobile. Odd that I don't remember any Mopars from the period, but I'm sure they were tried!


http://www.racingsportscars.com/driv...evson-USA.html

Peter Revson also drove a McClaren M6B for Shelby in the 1968 CanAm series, also Ford Powered.

As did Dan Gurney, Swede Savage and John Canon: http://www.racingsportscars.com/make...en.html?page=5

Mario Andretti and David Hobbs: http://www.racingsportscars.com/make...en.html?page=6

Don M
There were a few Dodge Can-Am cars, but they were quite unsuccessful. Ford also didn't have the success it had hoped, probably not winning more than a dozen events in the history of the old Can-Am. I'm not sure why, but for the most part, it was Chevrolet that was used by the majority of entrants. Even Motschenbacher used Chevy power in his Lola T-70s.

I'm sure that had McLaren been using Fords, they'd have still won as it seems both big block engines put out pretty much the same power, though I don't know what the reliability difference, if any, might have been. Of course, it didn't help Ford at all to have the Honker II powered by their engine!

Scott
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:32 PM
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If I remember right, the ONLY CanAm race a Ford motor won was the 1966 Bridgehampton race. The All American Boy, Dan Gurney in his AAR Lola T70 with a Ford motor with Gurney Weslake heads won that race. I don't think another Ford powered car ever came close to winning another CanAm race again. Even Dan switched to a Chevy motor by 1969 in his famed McLeagle.

Last edited by Dr. Gamma; 06-13-2011 at 03:22 PM. Reason: kan't speel
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:40 PM
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If FORD had put as much money into it as did Chevrolet, maybe put their name on a big aluminum lump, they likely would have been as successful as were the Chevys.

Scott...not van Aken
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Old 06-13-2011, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Gamma View Post
If I remember right, the ONLY CanAm race a Ford motor won was the 1966 Bridgehampton race. The All American Boy, Dan Gurney in his AAR Lola T70 with a Ford motor with Gurney Weslake heads won that race. I don't think another Ford powered car ever came close to winning another CanAm race again. Even Dan switched to a Chevy motor by 1969 in his famed McLeagle.
Absolutely correct! Ford through a bunch of stuff out there from the factory, but it was always sorta kinda supported. Man it's great to see the knowledge here!

-Paul
Admitted Historic Can-Am Junkie
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:27 PM
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Conversely to the Mclaen R/M did show a different engine top on their Lola T70 Spyders to represent those that were ford powered.
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pshoe64 View Post
Absolutely correct! Ford through a bunch of stuff out there from the factory, but it was always sorta kinda supported. Man it's great to see the knowledge here!

-Paul
Admitted Historic Can-Am Junkie
I have been a Dan Gurney fan since 1966. That was a easy question for me. I think the CanAm series was the BEST racing cars ever built and raced!! I have a CanAm rule book from back then, its 15 or 16 pages only, THATS IT!!!!! Lets see you need four wheels, run on gasoline, rollbar, and thats about it on rules. My neighbor back in Chicagoland owned the McLeagle for a few years back in the day. Too bad Bob wrecked it about everytime he took it out. Its great to see what it looks like now compared to what happened to it when Svast owned it.
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:27 PM
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Thank you Dr. Gamma- Ford's only successful 'finish' in 9 years of Can Am was Dan's '66 Bridgehampton Victory. And that had little to do with Ford and a lot more to do with Dan! The rest of the Ford dalliance (I wouldn't call it 'participation') started with the flex-y X-1, Ford GT 40 Mk II Roadster ---which managed not to kill Chris Amon -- on thru the BIG Blobs (er...blocks) of the 429'er -- a hand grenade in a Mclaren chassis... to the M-20 Turbo which was more like a nuke meltdown on 4 wheels.
Ford should have done what they ended up doing at LeMans --outsource and just write the check!! Their Can Am history is an embarassment but, Lothar's engine was indeed, a Ford, so we call all cut up the engine compartment and reach into the spares bin --but a great car otherwise!!
Best,
Steve
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:18 AM
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And let's not forget the Ford G7A the Agapiou brothers (did I spell that right?) made from the left over honeycomb chassis of a "J" Car. It saw the light of day a a couple of times, looked promising and then disappeared after a wreck pretty much trashed the chassis. I think there was a second, longer wheelbase version that may have ran in Interseries? Not sure, anyone have additional info there?

-Paul
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:47 AM
ctdurf ctdurf is offline
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A few Ford Can Am notes:
There were many Ford engine combos run. This was one of the weakness of the attempts . In the Chevy camp everyone was working with the small block architecture at the same time so the development was concentrated and the learning curve was both broad and steep . Once the aluminum big block came out pretty much all the development switched over to it . Although both engines were used in different sizes (small blocks from 327 to 366 cu. in and the big blocks in 427 , 430 , 465 , 494 and 503 versions) the basic pieces were the same . What worked and what didn't work was figured out fairly quickly , especially since GM was sort of centralizing and disseminating the info learned . This remained the case with the exception of when the Shadow team and a private team running a McLaren M20 for Mario Andretti made attempts to turbocharge the big block engine . By this point GM's involvement had pretty much stopped so there little or no cross pollination of info between the 2 groups . Neither had any success with the turbo experiments .
Ford , on the other hand , used no less than 5 distinct basic block configurations , designed a 6th that was never raced and raced no less than 8 different complete engines . The following is a partial list from memory
Indy 4 cam , based on the 260 block
Windsor head 289 , based on the 289 block
Windsor head 302 , based on the 302 block
Gurney Weslake 305 (the only race winner) and 325 , based on the 302 block
Gurney Weslake 360 , based on the 351 Windsor block
Gurney Westake 380 , based on an unidentified "Tall deck' version of a Windsor block , possibly a siamese bore 351W
427 FE engine also known as a "side oiler" in both cast iron and aluminum block versions. Used by Shelby for Peter Revson and Motschenbacher both in M6 McLarens , in a Lola T70 (I can't remember the driver at the moment) and in the G7a .
Boss 429 in 429cu. in and 494 cu. in versions both with aluminum blocks . This was the engine that could have given the big Chevies trouble if it had ever been put in a good chassis . It started life in the Honker , then was put in a badly out-dated M6B McLaren , the "429'er" and then finished it's Can Am career in the P69 Alan Mann Open Sports Ford . The P69 actually showed a little promise but it was too little too late .
The unraced engine that never saw the light of day other than some magazine articles was called the "Calliope" it was unique in that it was a 2 cam pushrod engine . There were 2 cams one intake and one exhaust both mounted in the block . This was a 3 valve engine with 2 intakes and 1 exhaust valve . The 2 cams were necessitated by the need to bring the push rods and rocker arms in from different sides of the head . This engine was superseded by the Boss 429 series . Looking at the layout of the Boss head it is not unlike a 2 valve version of the Calliope head . It only uses one cam and makes up the difference in valve position by using rocker arms of radically different lengths . Ironically the Calliope engine was to be used in an official state of the art , high winged , factory Ford Can Am car . It never was . Eventually 2 or 3 seasons later the chassis , well outdated and now powered by a 427 engine surfaced in the hands of a couple of Holman Moody mechanics (the Agapiou brothers) and was raced as the G7a.
About the only Ford engine that wasn't tried in a sports car was the 427 SOHC . There was talk in the day that it wouldn't fit into a T70 or a M6 due to it's extreme width at the cylinder heads . Although the Calliope and Boss engines were no midgets either both were considerably narrower than the SOHC

Thanks,
Durf
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  #14  
Old 06-14-2011, 10:15 AM
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Hi

The earlier "buick and Olds" motors were mostly pre-can am. The term is vague. There were basically two engines covered here. The first was a popular 50s hot rod motor, the 401 motor. This was a heavy iron big block that appeared in such icons as ""ole'Yeller". It was, simply, the biggest usable motor around. The second was the lovely aluminum small block developed for the early sixties "sub-compact" cars. These were usually in the 255 range and were popular because they were lighter than the 2.5 liter climax motors they were replacing in the various Coopers, Lotus and the like.

But the 401 was just too heavy to compete in the 60s. And the 255 just too small versus the "small block" chebby. The small block Chevy had all sorts of bits coming out of Chevy research that proved the aphorism that "the only substitute for cubic inches is cubic money".

All the Mopar motors didn't prove out. While the iconic Hemi was around starting in the 50s, the issue was simply that it had neither the support from Mopar nor the cool easy to use bits that Chevy did. Originally, they were heavy truck engines that were adopted by the cars, and that inherent design need/origin meant that they would not have the power potential of the small block.

Fate
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:17 AM
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Hi

As an aside, I have had the privilege of socializing with Dan Gurney. While we did discuss some racing, such as the Daytona 62 race, mostly the convesation involved normal conversation and sly humor. Unlike some famous drivers, he is actually very much like his reputation as a very nice guy who has an easy grin.

Fate
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