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Enough is enough?

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  • #16
    We currently have 4 tracks that we race on. 2 Scalextric, 4 lanes, approx.65ft. that run 330 total weight with magnet Trans Am class, silicon tires. 200 group C. 280 everything else, all stock OTB cars. 1 wood 140ft. 4 lane super road course, copper braid, metal flake in paint only on the turns, many, many magnets, no weight classifications. Can be a real booger. And 1 Ninco, 4 lanes, 117ft. 230 weight across the board, build whatever you want as long as it's in that class, and specific motor rpm, and also no-mag races only done on the Ninco. At the 2 Scaley tracks they run about the same classes every week, TransAm, LMP, Classic GT, and GT. The wood track breaks down the races into specific cars, 917, 962, TransAm, Carrera 6, etc. The Ninco track is only themed races, LeMans of a certain year, Blancpain. Watkins Glen, Sebring, etc...What we have is a coupe of folks that are dominant, and the accusations/insinuations fly about hot motors, and other things. So each track is different, no problem, set your cars up accordingly. But to stop the chirpiness and offhanded remarks, I suppose tech inspections would be the way to go? What about gearing? Yes the end result here is to find a happy medium that won't upset the applecart. Get every racer on an even field, and have the stupid remarks extinguished.
    Last edited by Headhunter; 06-18-2017, 03:27 AM.


    • #17
      Originally posted by Headhunter View Post
      I suppose tech inspections would be the way to go?

      That way you will not have to make potentially big changes looking for the 'level playing field'. Those making insinuations etc will have no basis to do so. You want to stop those, that is how.
      Last edited by NicoRosberg.; 06-18-2017, 03:43 AM.


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ecurie Martini View Post
        And this is exactly why I have little interest in "OTB" or "box stock" classes. I learned long ago, in the world of 1:1 SCCA racing, that really prepping a production class car was more difficult (and often more expensive) than running a purpose-built modified. Did you know that one can machine out the center of a generator pulley and fit a ball bearing so there is no load? So long as it is a daytime race the car will run all day on a charged battery. or, if you want to push it, you can pull the dry liners on a 2 litre Bristol engine, fit new pistons that run just fine in the cast iron block and, Presto!, 2.2 litres.

        There are a lot of tuning tricks that can significantly improve "stock" cars. They are, for the most part, perfectly legal (and there are a few that are a bit less "legal" but very hard to detect) Effective application of these tweaks, especially to current high performance slot cars with their complex, multi-part chassis requires a lot of knowledge, patience and convenient access to test facilities.

        I'd rather spend my bench time building the best chassis that I can with all of the "improvements" built in from the start.


        Sir, I respect your thoughts and have seen your cars and they are impressive. My only thought is what do the people do who either do not have your skill set to build chassis or can not solder to the standard that it takes to build that chassis?

        I would dare say that it takes more specific knowledge and ability to build a chassis than it does to learn which screws to turn on a multi-part chassis.

        In modern day SCCA racing the dominate classes (as far as number of entries) seems to be both the showroom stock type classes and the improved touring classes with Spec Miata leading the way. Why we ask? Well I believe it is because it is much easier for the average man to purchase a used Miata, install a ready made roll cage and safety equipment and go racing. No need for a big shop, specialized tools and ability, in other words it opens racing more to Joe Average.

        I believe that slot racing is much the same, take away all of the classes where Mr. Average can purchase a car or cars for him and his son to race and you eliminate a good portion of potential racers.


        • #19
          But it seems the issue OP has is with members trying to push the limits or make modifications that are not permitted to the rules. If people are not respecting the rules, the only option then is to supply the cars.

          If you have a club which people want to provide their own cars, but a number of individuals are not respecting the rules, what do you do? Do you kick them out/penalize them in a way which could cause some discord within the club, or do you modify the rules so that the host supplies the cars?

          I compare the issue to when I played in online racing leagues (yes, video games). We had a variety of racers, those who were ultra competitive, to those who just were having fun. The issue of course was that the game allowed each racer to set up their cars how they wanted to (as you are permitted in the real world), you had some people really good at it, and others who did not have the time. In order to get better racing the league set the rule that all racers would use a fixed setup. The setup was a pre-set option that came with the game to ensure the cars were drive-able for all racers. This meant that the racing game down to racer skill with the variable of what equipment/internet connection they had. A faster PC and better internet service would be a benefit to somebody who had a slower computer and slower internet, another variable was also the type of race wheel or game controller each person used. Some used controllers, others used race wheels, and some race wheels had force feedback which allowed you to "feel" the car while those without force feedback did not.

          The long gist of it is that you have people not respecting the rules when the club permits them to bring their own cars. So taking out that variable just makes sense in my opinion.


          • #20
            Originally posted by Wood0209 View Post

            If you have a club which people want to provide their own cars, but a number of individuals are not respecting the rules, what do you do? Do you kick them out/penalize them in a way which could cause some discord within the club, or do you modify the rules so that the host supplies the cars?
            I'd DQ them, but it is a tough call. But the idea of changing the rules and procedures, which affects everyone, for me is worse that dealing with those breaking the rules. Assuming they are doing that of course, the OP did mention insinuations rather than tech violations being found.

            We recently had one of our younger members being accused of cheating. His car was 'too fast' and the magnets 'too shiny' for such an old chassis. Said chassis passed tech several times, but the insinuations still rumble.

            I think this is terrible, and the kid does not race with us as much as he used to. He used to be mad keen. If we had to go through all that, and then end up with hand-out cars or the like, for me that would be tragic. Happily the organisers have intimated there is no chance of this, but it still burns that the finger-pointers are still regulars, their target is not.


            • #21
              Our club, with which Ecurie Martini has been a longtime member, and Mayberryman races with a few times a season (IHSR: has had to deal with this only a few times since its founding around 1994.

              One of the more interesting instances was several years ago, when we were running magnets, with a Fly class saying the cars basically had to be stock. As we know, strong magnets can hide a multitude of sins.

              In 'Stock' we made the mistake of defining it, including stock wheels and tires.

              One guy, a new guy, a BRAND new guy, put his Fly Venturi on the track, and it stuck like crazy. If it weren't for the fact that he was actually a bad driver and couldn't drive a strong magnet car at its limits, he likely would've 'won' that day.

              Turns out, he'd swapped out the rear wheels/tires for the fronts. Which were smaller in diameter. Which put the magnet closer to the track. Ok. He said it was still 'stock,' in that the car still had the stock wheels and tires. He pointed out the rules didn't define stock as anything more than having the original, stock parts. Didn't specify that they had to be installed as delivered.

              He didn't stay around long. We didn't openly chastise him, but we have a way of nudging out the outliers like him, and they go away on their own.

              Like so many other clubs, from then on we included in rules some variation of "If a modification is not specifically cited as allowed in the rules, then it's not allowed."

              It's a catch all, but can work.

              As with most things in life, the trick with rules is that if you have a rule, by default you need a policing mechanism. If you're not checking with compliance, it isn't really a rule.

              Our season, which ended last month, for the first time in several years, in the rules, re-instituted the pre race tech inspection (if you have a backup car for a class, it needed to be scrutinized, too) and the post race tear down of the top 3.

              Well, we didn't do either, once, in about a dozen race dates.

              Our rules committee is looking at classes/rules for next season (starts in October, please join us) and again we're talking about really doing tech inspections again.

              As for 'cheating,' I default to this being a hobby of playing with toys, for me. I treat it like that, with a mix of wanting to be competitive mixed with the indifference of having to go to work the next Monday, facing real world things to get worked up about. As a young man, I played a collegiate sport at a high, nationally ranked level, and as a slightly older young man competed in full contact karate tournaments. I took THOSE seriously, slot cars, not so much.

              Still, it's been perplexing to me how, in a 4 heat race, each heat being 2.5 to 3 minutes (depending on host's discretion) I can finish 20 laps or more down in a spec class race (Carrera or Slot It Group C). BUT, in getting clobbered, I don't default to someone cheating. I assume it's a combination of: better drivers, and guys who can set up a car within the rules better than I.

              After each race day, I promised myself to spend some bench time working on my cars (we have a 2 to 3 week gap between race dates) so that I might do better.

              Good intentions compete with reality, and more often than not around dinner time the night before a race day, I realize I'd not touched my slot car box since the last race, and I need to at least soak some oil into the tires before going to bed that night.

              If that's the extent of my race prep, I always get commensurate results. If someone is going to the trouble to cheat, well I picture them spending WAY too much of their spare time (and money) buying extra 'legal' motors to test to get the fastest, or otherwise blue printing their box stock car. And frankly, neither is cheating under the rules. Perfectly allowed, so if I want better results and am not willing to probe the legal extent of the rules like others do, that's on me.

              My time away from slots is spent doing other things, so I'm satisfied with my results, they align with my level of prep. I accept that some guys are better builders and drivers, and when I get spanked I don't default to assuming someone's cheating.

              In terms of parity, I tend to leave race days before the day ending, host's choice IROC. IROC holds no charm for me, I'd rather run my own 'stable' no matter how uncompetitive it might be.

              I like that our long standing club has largely been devoid of finger pointing. Not saying it's been completely absent, but by and large it's not been a problem.
              Last edited by tlbrace; 06-18-2017, 05:30 AM.


              • #22
                That is a quality post.


                • #23
                  Excellent post Todd. Thank you very much for the insight.


                  • #24
                    Sir, I respect your thoughts and have seen your cars and they are impressive. My only thought is what do the people do who either do not have your skill set to build chassis or can not solder to the standard that it takes to build that chassis?

                    Please stop callingme "sir" - I feel old enough already. And I believe there is a need for RTR classes in a group such as ISHR - I was merely addressing the reason that, while I participate, they receive less than my full attention. (When the group was forming, 20+ years ago, essentially all of the racing was with RTR magnet cars on plastic tracks. Currently all racing is non-magnet and many long time members have added scratch or highly modified cars to their stables)

                    I would dare say that it takes more specific knowledge and ability to build a chassis than it does to learn which screws to turn on a multi-part chassis.

                    Certainly correct but there is more to it than that: Tire choice and gear changes (where permitted), chassis body shaving for clearance, tire preparation - gluing, truing, contouring and treatment, bearing and axle preparation, braid choice, guide polishing, motor preparation - running in (dry, in water or solvent) lubrication and, of course, motor "choice" - we use cheap, high volume motors that have significant production variations and testing of a handful of motors will reveal, in most cases, significant differences. (When I returned to slot racing in 1995, I bought a car full of Scalextric gear from a chap on one of the old DLs - track, cars, and boxes full of spare including about 20 new motors. I checked the motors with precision power supply and a tach and found a +/- 15% variation in no-load RPM!)

                    I believe that slot racing is much the same, take away all of the classes where Mr. Average can purchase a car or cars for him and his son to race and you eliminate a good portion of potential racers.



                    • #25
                      Great post Todd, very similar to my own sentiment.....

                      I'll often write a note on a piece of masking tape on race night and stick to the chassis of the car that needs a repair or adjustment only to see when we race the following week.

                      We have a couple of tinkerers in our group and quite often "stock" classes allow limited or no modifications all well documented in the 24 classes we have. Yeah 24 a bit of overkill but anyway.

                      Quite often there will be some that have replaced rear axles with parts with the excuse - it's the only way I could get it to run how I like - but it's not legal? I'll openly tell them where their fault is, problem is then one or 2 others do it and it's no longer stock. While it provides some closer racing as you have weaker drivers with better cars, it still irks me that it's not considered cheating?

                      One area that seems to be contentious is tyres - we have a set manufacturer and type of tyre for each class. A new guy that has joined us wants to buy from a different supplier, that doesn't carry the brand we usually use, because he likes dealing with them.
                      We use silicone and he thinks silicone is silicone. Fair enough but what happens if one is better than the other now everyone switches or you've just bought tyres you can't use? Took a while for him to grasp it.

                      At the end of the day I play with toy cars, it doesn't consume my life. I have fun and like to play by the rules and hope everyone else does. Unfortunately there will always be those in life who think the rules don't apply to them or they need to find a way to manipulate the rules.
                      I'm a firm believer of "If it's not in the rules it's not allowed"

                      If there are rumblings of cheating perhaps institute a pay up or shut up policy. If you want to accuse someone of cheating it costs you $5(Any amount you choose really) if they are then you keep the money if the aren't the person accused keeps it. If you aren't prepared to put your money where your mouth is then keep your snide comments to yourself?


                      • #26
                        Remember to consider this.....a person insinuating you may be cheating or pointing fingers etc..feels threatened ,probably more than cheated. Should you become uncomfortable and participate less like the youth mentioned in an earlier post...the accuser just removed his tougher competition. And really, that's about all it takes or the crybaby wanted.
                        Not saying it's always so....but could easily be.


                        • #27
                          If you're unwilling to tech cars and enforce the rules, don't make any rules. Enough said.


                          • #28
                            A quote from the late Larry Shepard (LarryLS on many forums) "Fewer rules means less cheating"

                            My personal preference for rules? - scale WB and tread +/- 1.5 mm and tire rules min/max diameter and tread width (if someone wants to try and put the power of a 40K motor through 8 mm of rubber - be my guest)



                            • #29
                              Here's how the race announcements go out for races at our Ninco track, verbatim:

                              What: Watkins Glen CanAm
                              Where: War Eagle River
                              When: Saturday June 10th. 9:30AM
                              Who: You know who you are
                              Why: Why not

                              Pre-race inspection!!
                              General Rules:
                              - Cars Allowed: All Pre 1973 CanAm cars, OPEN COCKPIT ONLY, all brands
                              - 2 or more of the same livery's are permitted, cars will have to be marked with a sticker dot to tell who's who
                              - Controllers provided, Professor Motor.
                              - No juicing!! That means no Voodoo during the race, if your cars have it before you get here, that's okay
                              - No oils of any kind, on tires, or anywhere else, This is Ninco track and oils tend to get trapped in the gription.
                              - No leaning on the track, there are grabbers. This is a warning, first offense you will be surrendering a lap, second offense- you're out of the race!
                              - No exposed metal (must be covered with non-conductive tape or paint)
                              - Motors may not be opened, altered, or modified in any manner including the original markings and wrappings except for the trimming of the shaft(s) for clearance purposes only
                              - Only the specified motors are permitted
                              - Guide Blade/Braid: guide blade only, spring (if any) may be modified and/or removed/Any manufactures’ braid material permitted
                              - Loose body/chassis screws must be covered w/tape
                              - Custom painted cars are allowed (Note: body must remain as produced by manufacture, however additional details such as lights, mirrors, roll bars, scoops, etc. may be added where prototypical as long as
                              the modification does not reduce the weight of the car or provide any other enhancement of performance)
                              - Cars must have a visible cockpit with an interior & driver w/2 arms showing, lightweight interiors allowed
                              - Any tires, all wheels/tires may be cleaned and trued by sanding; all 4 must touch the track and roll & must not exceed the width of the body
                              - Tires may be glued to the rims
                              - Wheels/Axles: modifications permitted
                              - Any adjustments, cleaning, and/or repairs are to be performed under power off conditions only. The participant(s) will be given a maximum of 5 minutes to perform such repairs and then the track will be returned to “Green”
                              - Gears: modifications permitted (may change plastic for brass)
                              - Bushings: modifications permitted (may change plastic for brass)
                              - Chassis (no weights mounted under the chassis) minimum of 1mm (.040”) clearance. Gear/ magnet, chassis must not scrape track.
                              - Magnet: 230g.
                              - 18k RPM motor limit
                              - Running Voltage: 12.0v
                              - Race Duration: 1 Race, 4 minutes per lane


                              • #30
                                level playing field

                                That looks to be a reasonable set of rules. But you have to have someone check (tech inspector) to be sure the rules are being followed. With running magnets and sounds like lots of magnets you may have to invest in a magnet marshal and scale.

                                If you have everyone supply their own cars, then maybe you could:
                                1. leave cars in lane and just drivers change lanes.
                                2. a random selection of cars before start of the race. EX. have 10 cars? number cars 1-10. have drivers pick a playing card from 1-10 and that is your car for the race.
                                3. After the race, top 2-3 cars can be bought or swapped for the slowest cars?

                                4. If it really continues, add a rule that says there could be a tear-down at end of race. then confiscate the car and take it apart and report back with all details of tear-down. This report would be given to all in the club/race. combined weight, front weight, rear weight, body weight, chassis weight, magnet strength and placement, motor speed, gearing, rpm of rear wheels at 12v, types of tire and wheels, size of tire and wheels. inline, sidewinder, anglewinder config, other items?
                                If a infraction is found, a DQ for that race, If it is found again, you can decide what to do.

                                There are some people that are more competative than others and there are some that better drivers, they will do better than the others and that is OK.

                                I dont know you, but by reading your posts, it sounds like it is not fun at your race. This is suppose to be a relaxing hobby and fun. If i was a newbie and watched and heard that i would not even watch the races
                                Maybe someone else has other ideas
                                Last edited by Lancelotalove; 06-18-2017, 02:49 PM.


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