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  • #31
    Perhaps the starting point should be an assessment of how bad things really are?

    How many clubs have folded because LPF was not sought and some racers who don't usually win walked way? How many has LPF saved?

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    • #32
      Racing can be either a hobby or...much, much more serious.

      In 1:1 racing I would contrast club racing (SCCA & etc) to "class racing" as being analogous.

      In SCCA or vintage, generally speaking everyone unloads and runs what they brung. Rules are mostly safety oriented, and the cars run in the order of cubic dollars invested. No one much cares.

      Short track racing, on the other hand, is a different deal. No one is truly friends, especially on the track. And while we build a car to pass tech, there may be something we don't want them to look at.

      And the rules change if one has an advantage, as the legal body we came up with did at the beginning of this year. One night--legal. The second night--"fix" the front end. The third night--fix the rear.

      A racing saying: "In racing, there are cheaters, and there are losers".

      So, know all that going in. Additionally, there is the "rules" thing, and then there are "personality" issues.

      If the rules/enforcement/cheating bothers you, suggest an IROC class and then run it exclusively.

      If there is a personality conflict, you need another venue.

      One thing is for sure, folks are not going to do it "your way" because it is "the right thing" and you pointed it out, pretty much in all of life.

      SO, if one really wants a level playing field of modified cars, I would suggest they start their own club, write their own rules (or adopt established ones), and do their own tech. Every race night. And count on dealing with "issues" in an ongoing basis. And then work hard at not being preferential, and be prepared to be accused of being so. And you really cannot run your own car for the same reasons.

      Me? IROC, and I prepare all the cars. "BASCAR" is the sanctioning body, and the acronym stands for "Bob- [initial, initial]- Controls All Rules".

      I have no issues, everyone has a good time. But it is a SCCA, not NASCAR, style deal.

      Ya pays yer money and ya picks yer poison.
      Last edited by Slotbob; 06-19-2017, 07:45 AM.

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      • #33
        I dont know you, but by reading your posts, it sounds like it is not fun at your race. This is suppose to be a relaxing hobby and fun. If i was a newbie and watched and heard that i would not even watch the races
        Maybe someone else has other ideas[/quote]



        It is plenty fun! Just the last 2 races, there has been remarks of maybe something is amiss. A couple racers who always seem to be on top, way ahead of the pack, are being scrutinized. Actually the remarks are coming from those 2 guys, and a couple of others, basically just snide remarks, not out and out accusations, yet. Competitiveness, jealousy, who knows? Some guys are using better gear ratios? Using softer braid? Better tires? Prepping the their cars better? Actually practicing with their cars? I know that some of the tracks allow Voodoo juice, and they are loaded up before they get here, I do not allow it. Maybe that's it? No motors with holes drilled in them? So many variables. The IROC races are okay, just not my cup of tea. I like to build cars, and give everyone the opportunity to do so as well. That's why we do all brands, and build what you want, keeping within certain guidelines, motors and magnets. And I try to help those who are not as sufficient. I believe that's what the hobby is about, not OTB racing or weekend warriors so to speak. I'm just hoping to get it all nipped in the bud. Thought maybe the masses would have suggestions to ease the minds of all parties. Looks like tech inspections might do it.
        Last edited by Headhunter; 06-19-2017, 04:31 AM.

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        • #34
          [/quote]... A couple racers who always seem to be on top, way ahead of the pack, are being scrutinized. Actually the remarks are coming from those 2 guys, and a couple of others, basically just snide remarks, not out and out accusations, yet. Competitiveness, jealousy, who knows? Some guys are using better gear ratios? Using softer braid? Better tires? Prepping the their cars better? Actually practicing with their cars? I know that some of the tracks allow Voodoo juice, and they are loaded up before they get here, I do not allow it. Maybe that's it? No motors with holes drilled in them? So many variables. The IROC races are okay, just not my cup of tea. I like to build cars, and give everyone the opportunity to do so as well. That's why we do all brands, and build what you want, keeping within certain guidelines, motors and magnets. And I try to help those who are not as sufficient. I believe that's what the hobby is about, not OTB racing or weekend warriors so to speak. I'm just hoping to get it all nipped in the bud. Thought maybe the masses would have suggestions to ease the minds of all parties. Looks like tech inspections might do it.[/quote]

          Scott, one little thought experiment would be, after a race (let guys know in advance) EVERYBODY tears down and everybody can look at other cars, and all are required to explain/answer questions about theirs.

          NOT for the purposes of cheating, call it a 'clinic' in which all club members help each other with building/tuning/setup tips/techniques/secrets.

          What would this exercise tell you? Guys who balk...they either ARE fudging on the rules, OR they like knowing stuff others don't...they don't want to share knowledge with their club mates.

          Either way, the leopard will show his spots. You'll either identify motives and cull out folks who are really a negative influence, or everyone will have a chance to learn how to make their cars go faster (absent better driving), or both.

          Comment


          • #35
            Scott, one little thought experiment would be, after a race (let guys know in advance) EVERYBODY tears down and everybody can look at other cars, and all are required to explain/answer questions about theirs.

            NOT for the purposes of cheating, call it a 'clinic' in which all club members help each other with building/tuning/setup tips/techniques/secrets.

            What would this exercise tell you? Guys who balk...they either ARE fudging on the rules, OR they like knowing stuff others don't...they don't want to share knowledge with their club mates.

            I would be more than happy to do this (sidebar - my cars are fast, I'm not) and quite willing to explain in (probably boring) detail what I do and why. I'll go a step farther because I believe it would be good for the group - anyone who wants to join me in my workshop for a "tutorial" or a building session will be quite welcome.

            EM

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Headhunter View Post


              It is plenty fun! Just the last 2 races, there has been remarks of maybe something is amiss. A couple racers who always seem to be on top, way ahead of the pack, are being scrutinised. Actually the remarks are coming from those 2 guys, and a couple of others, basically just snide remarks, not out and out accusations, yet. Competitiveness, jealousy, who knows? Some guys are using better gear ratios? Using softer braid? Better tires? Prepping the their cars better? Actually practising with their cars? I know that some of the tracks allow Voodoo juice, and they are loaded up before they get here, I do not allow it. Maybe that's it? No motors with holes drilled in them? So many variables. The IROC races are okay, just not my cup of tea. I like to build cars, and give everyone the opportunity to do so as well. T
              It does sound as if you need to tweak some of the racers more than your rules!

              Comment


              • #37
                "The IROC races are okay, just not my cup of tea. I like to build cars, and give everyone the opportunity to do so as well. That's why we do all brands, and build what you want, keeping within certain guidelines, motors and magnets."--HH

                I would suggest "all brands" is conceptually cool but a kettle of fish.

                A lot of times 1:1 racing will allow more than one type of car or motor, and attempt to equalize things with weight. One setup or another is always faster. One of two things happen: Either everyone changes to the hot setup, or they add or subtract weight. The latter, imo, drives cars into retirement.

                In my own 1/64 world, the make car I run manufactured two slightly different chassis types that have interchangeable parts. One type is consistently faster than the other.

                Point being, are there more than the two hotdogs running their chassis/body combo? If not...

                If so, then someone has to start tearing down and comparing cars after each race. Then either ban whatever their advantage is or share it with the group.

                Either way, it will be an ongoing deal, I am guessing.

                Not the wrong choice, just one that requires ongoing effort if you have some serious racers (and/or tire soakers) in the group.

                What is a "legal" car? One that leaves with the win and is not declared illegal. The rules support that, but do not guarantee that...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Slotbob View Post
                  What is a "legal" car? One that leaves with the win and is not declared illegal. The rules support that, but do not guarantee that...
                  Which takes us back to the need for a Tech Inspection, in order for the cars to be allowed entry.

                  Rules can't ensure that each and every car (never mind the controller and driver etc) will be identical; this isn't ever going to happen.

                  But they can, and should, ensure that everyone has the same opportunity. And I think that's what most folks are trying to do when they create a set of rules for people to have a fair competition.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Right.

                    And some grab the opportunity more than others, some of whom want them pegged back. This does not always happen, but it happens often.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Thanks very much everyone for the insight and suggestions. I think we will try a 'clinic' tear down session after the next race and see where it goes from there. If everybody is within the rules/guidelines, then we can see who needs to improve, and how to do so.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        As an aside ...

                        ... I've raced in several of the Enduros that our site host Alan likes to organize. Think in terms of 6, 9, 12, or 24 hours' continuous racing, typically needing at least three racers per team (that way nobody drops dead from exhaustion, or at least not so far).

                        Rules are written to allow for cars to be fixed during the race, by the team members, but of course during green light racing. Like LeMans or Sebring, the winning team will be the one whose car travels the furthest in the allotted time. All of this with strict rules, including no magnets, and mostly 1/24 scale.

                        The way Alan does it, not only do all cars have to be at Tech Inspection on time ahead of the green flag (at which point they can't be touched by anyone until they're on the grid, unless returned to the offending team for any necessary fixing to bring them into compliance if there's time) but essentially, these races emulate their 1:1 counterparts.

                        During the race, if your car breaks - even from a crash that removes a wing, for instance, or lights that quit working - or needs mechanical attention for any reason, then a marshal will remove it from the track and place it in the pits for the team to repair, if they can.

                        So after the race, the cars go back into isolation, and re-checked for Tech compliance; no way are entrants going to get away with subtle, hidden tweaks during a Pit Stop - because they'll get found out and disqualified.

                        This highly disciplined type of racing is huge fun, an experience that you have to endure to understand. But at the end of it, you're left with the satisfaction of knowing that the best team won.

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                        • #42
                          Hey Wet, come try our bracket racing...no rules and guaranteed level playing field...you know where to find us

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                          • #43

                            Facinating.

                            A while back I proposed something similar to circumvent the endless rules cycle.

                            Care to expound upon the details...?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              We race 5 lap crash and burn. Depending on turnout, we run 4,5 or 6 races per lane.
                              The track is split into sections representing 1/10 of a second. We arrive at the number of sections by taking an average lap time. On our 90 ft Targa track it worked out to 17 sections.

                              Everyone does about 4 laps to get a breakout time and then the slowest car starts at the start line. So for example the 3 car's breakout times might be 8 sec, 7.8 sec and 7.2 seconds, the 8 second car gets the start line, 7.8 car starts 2 sections back and the 7.2 car starts 8 sections back. If everyone drives close to their breakout time, we get a photo finish. If you break out, you get 0 points for that race and you have to adjust your break out time.

                              You can adjust your breakout time after every race, but that also changes your starting position. On our track each section is about 63"

                              Each lane has an adjustable power supply, so you can change your breakout time or change the voltage in your lane.

                              Why we like this system...
                              You can race every car you own
                              You can build brass chassis rockets or run box stock
                              The race line-up doesn't matter
                              Differences in lane length don't matter
                              You don't have to buy the latest, fastest cars unless you want to
                              A well tuned car is easier to drive consistently, so tinkering still helps
                              There are NO rules, so there's nothing to argue about

                              We tell a first time racer to turn his power down to where he can lap without lifting. His lap times will be slow but consistent and he'll be very hard to beat. Then, when the other 2 guys turn their power down as well, you get very tense races and it won't be long before the voltage starts creeping up.

                              The most important thing is consistency, so the better drivers still win a lot of races, but the finishes are very close.

                              We've been using this system about 3 years and race nights are much more fun and social

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                              • #45
                                Bracket racing sounds interesting. How do you figure out the setbacks for starting. And doesn't the rear car catch and pass the front starter quickly?

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